The future of art

Russ Altman (00:00): This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Russ Altman. If you enjoy listening to The Future of Everything, please follow or subscribe on your favorite app. You'll hear about new episodes and you'll help us grow.

(00:16): Today, Deborah Cullinan will tell us that art is intimately associated with health and wellness. And the good news is that it's thriving. It's the future of art.

(00:26): Before we jump into this episode, a reminder and a plea to rate and review the podcast. It helps us improve and it spreads the word about The Future of Everything.

(00:36): Sometimes we think of art as something that you go to a museum to look at or a concert hall to think about, but actually, art, of course, can take many forms and everyone can create and everyone can enjoy creations. Artists do it for a living, but many of us enjoy creating things at all scales and of all different types. And this has now been shown to be good for our mental and physical health. It also can contribute to social cohesion and overall trust. That all sounds pretty good.

(01:09): Deborah Cullinan is the vice President of Arts at Stanford University. She designs and implements programs with art and artists and brings them on to a university campus. This includes the living spaces, the teaching spaces, and even a hospital on campus. She will tell us that the best definition of art is one that is broad, inclusive and all encompassing. And she'll tell us, and this is good news, that interest and appreciation in art has skyrocketed during and after the pandemic.

(01:40): Deborah, what is the role in our lives today and did we learn anything special about it during the pandemic?

Deborah Cullinan (01:48): It's such a good question, Russ. I'm so glad to be here to talk about this. I think that I'll start with the second half of the question, which is, did we learn about the role that art can play in our lives through the pandemic? And I would say absolutely yes. In my career, which is now getting long, I have never encountered a deeper understanding across discipline and sector for the power that art can have in our lives and for this idea that art in all shapes and forms, art and creativity really advances equity and health and wellbeing for all of us. So I feel like this is a really exciting time for us to be thinking about what art can do.

Russ Altman (02:32): Do you have some understanding of where that came from? I also have this impression... As a non-professional art lover, I also have this impression that art has been having a moment. Can you unpack how and why this happened?

Deborah Cullinan (02:46): I think we might understand a little bit more than we had before that we are lacking imagination, that the problems that we face feel intractable and we're stuck, and we just understand that what we need is to get out of the box. What we need is to be able to stand in this present tense, understand where we have been, and see a new future for ourselves and our communities. And I think we know that this is the role that artists play. I also think that artists showed us repeatedly and over and over again that they could meet the moment, that art will transform us even through Zoom and through a pandemic and through racial reckoning that we can bring the tools in an artist's toolbox to bear in terms of how we're thinking about the societal issues we face.

Russ Altman (03:40): Now, you work in art specifically on a university campus. And so I am guessing that you have some insight specifically about how the next generation of people, the undergraduates and even the graduate students at a university. Are you seeing a different appreciation? Did this impact them more or less, or is it really across the board and really everybody has had this experience over the last three years?

Deborah Cullinan (04:05): I mean, I think what we're learning from our students in particular is that people want creative lives. And it doesn't matter if you're going to study computer science or political science or engineering, whatever it may be, there's a creative practice that you want to pursue. I think the other thing that our students are telling us, and we're learning this because arts activities hands down are oversubscribed. Last week, we had our spring arts fair. I don't have the actual numbers in yet, but I would say we had double the participation, and that was from current students and incoming students and their families. And if you just listen to what students are telling us, they're saying, "My life needs to be creative. I may have more than one career." As we think about the future of work, we need to be thinking about what our lives are like, not just what our career pathways are going to be.

Russ Altman (05:00): That's quite remarkable. Now, I know that you have spoken and written about this, and I even hesitated to ask it, but there are going to be people who say, well, what is art anyway? Are we talking about painting? Are we talking about music? And I know you've thought about this a lot. How do you conceive and how do you communicate how people should or if they should draw boundaries about what's art and what's not art?

Deborah Cullinan (05:22): I think that my opinion is that we should be embracing the most expansive definition of art and creativity that we possibly can. And I think one of the things that holds us back in terms of unleashing the full potential of our own creativity and the full potential of what art can do in our lives is we get binary. We start to be concerned about the utility of art versus art for art's sake. And I think we should love all of it. If we have learned that art can be transformative and we have data and story after story that tells us that art can transform, then I think it is our obligation to apply that power to the social good. And we should be able to enjoy a powerful moment, art for the sake of its beauty, and also apply art in service of what we need.

Russ Altman (06:20): And that's a very attractive model, at least to me. And so I would like to sign up for that. In your day-to-day work in art with artists, is there pushback on this? Now, I know that there are people out in the world who are not artists who say very strict things like that's not art, this is art. Is this a dynamic within the art community? Are there professional artists who want to draw boundaries that are different from the one that you just described, which was really quite expansive, obviously?

Deborah Cullinan (06:51): Yeah. I mean, I think the concern, if there is one, would be that we would devalue that experience of the power and the beauty of art in and of itself, and that we do a disservice to artists and to art experiences if we're constantly making the case for arts. And I think, really, what we're here to do at Stanford and beyond is repeatedly demonstrate its consequential impact in our lives. Tell the story of impact. Talk about the artists that we show at the Cantor or the Anderson or on the stages of Stanford Live. Celebrate the artists who are doing work in and with community through institute for diversity in the arts, the Arts Institute. And again, have an expansive vision of what art really can be and who can make it.

Russ Altman (07:42): Great. Great. So speaking about the impacts of art, I know that you have been very active and very interested actually for much of your career about the impact of art on health. And obviously, that's of great interest both proximally in time right now, but it's of interesting idea as well. So can you tell me what is first of all known about art and its impacts with health? And then, how do you conceive of it and how does this affect the kinds of activities you engage in?

Deborah Cullinan (08:12): Such a great and very timely question. As you say, for many years now, I've had the great honor of being able to work with people across this country who are really working at these intersections of art and health, and again, along a spectrum. So we think about the role that art can play downstream when someone is managing a health condition, but we also have a lot of data about what art can do upstream. And we know that art early and often in people's lives can have a significant effect on our health outcomes.

(08:46): So in the age of social determinants, when we know a zip code has a significant role to play in your health outcomes, if we know that art in classrooms, art in healthcare systems, art in community can actually help people, why wouldn't we apply it is my question. And right now, one of my very respected colleagues, Susan Magsamen, who is at Johns Hopkins, she's the founder of the International Arts and Minds Lab. She collaborated with Ivy Ross who does product work at Google, and they wrote a book called Your Brain on Art. And this book, which hit the New York Times-

Russ Altman (09:26): Many people will not remember the advertising campaign, I think even in the '60s and '70s, which was your brain on drugs, and it showed a scrambled egg. And that has become a meme, one of the oldest memes probably for those of us who can remember it.

Deborah Cullinan (09:41): I think it's a fabulous use of it. And what they are doing in this book, which is just saying hit the New York Times bestseller list right away, which tells you a lot about what we as a public are interested in and believing in. But what they do is they lay out the neuroscience in really easy terms to understand, and then they tell the story of impact, story after story of art in relationship to chronic pain dance and how it helps people with Parkinson's disease, art and mental health, art and PTSD. It's so many things.

(10:20): And so, for me, I think what Susan and Ivy have done that is so profound is they've begun the process of mainstreaming an idea that has been well known to insiders who are working at these intersections. And that mainstreaming will help us shift culture, change hearts and minds, and therefore change policy and think about systems.

(10:39): So when I think about my work at Stanford, I just think about when we say art should be everywhere, I want us to imagine that to mean, yes, art on the walls, a public art program, performance everywhere, and also art integrated into the infrastructure. It is a part of the systems and we know that it will help serve us. And in thinking about the work at Stanford, I think about our students, and we know that students would benefit, that art contributes to social cohesion and belonging, that those things can lead to better health outcomes. We're looking at how we really integrate.

Russ Altman (11:20): Just to make this very real for somebody who hasn't thought about this, can you describe some of the programs? I know there are things that we do in the hospital. Stanford has a hospital on the campus. Of course, it also has the campus on the campus. Can you give a couple of examples of impactful, or I don't even care about impact, exciting things in the arts that are happening along the lines that you just described?

Deborah Cullinan (11:44): Yeah. I mean, in Stanford Medicine, we have Medicine in the Muse and Brian Kim and his team are doing extraordinary work and they're thinking about art in relationship to direct patient care. They're thinking about art and research that we can do that helps advance these concepts. They're also thinking, and I think this is so important, about art in relationship to healthcare providers, those who are on the front lines and families as well, who are managing these incredibly difficult and challenging circumstances. And we know that art in their lives can actually help them to manage through their work and heal from the work that they're doing. We're seeing it in the school of medicine and Stanford Medicine in general in major ways.

(12:33): We're also looking at what we can do in support of Vaden and Student Mental Health Services and how we can think about integrating the arts into those programs so that for those students who would definitely benefit from visiting a performance, excuse me, visiting a performance or attending an exhibition, that we can make that easy to do, we can remove the barriers, we can really think about how to serve our students and other people on campus.

Russ Altman (13:00): So as you make these very exciting... I almost use the word intervention, and it's a funny word to use because you don't think of art as an intervention, but I'm beginning to... That word popped up because these are very intentional things that you're doing with art in the environment built and otherwise. So let me ask, on campus, do you have models for... Many people think about the, I'm going to a concert, I've devoted an hour and a half or two hours of my life, or I'm going to an art installation and I'm going to be there for an hour. Do you think about these micro art moments? I don't even know if this is a thing. I'm making this up. But it occurs to me that art may not always be a huge investment of time, and it might have these benefits even in smaller doses. And I'm wondering how you think about, I guess, I'm a physician, the dosing of art.

Deborah Cullinan (13:53): I love that. And I don't know if you've read Susan and Ivy's book.

Russ Altman (13:56): I haven't.

Deborah Cullinan (13:57): They talk a lot about this, and I won't get the statistic quite right, but it's something like 10, 20 minutes of art a day, and it doesn't matter what it is. Whip out a notebook, draw. Dance in your room to your favorite song. Just let your creativity be surfaced. And it has proven to have a significant benefit. And there are statistics, again, I won't get them right, but you might live longer. All things being equal. And so I think that's a piece of that question.

(14:32): The other thing that I know is there are student groups all over campus. They organize themselves and they're telling us. They are rehearsing on White Plaza. There are knitting clubs that are oversubscribed. Everyone wants to do ceramics. Classes like improv or ballroom dancing fill up really quickly. So there are lots of ways to think about this, and I think the most important thing for people is not to worry about whether or not you are good at it, but to think about how it will make you happy, how it will bring you joy, how it might help you work through something that is causing you anxiety.

Russ Altman (15:09): I'm also struck in your comments that there's a fluidity between the artist who's creating and the person who is consuming. And you haven't made that distinction in many of your comments just now. You've talked about people creating and consuming and it's almost... So is this a thing? I guess I'm wondering, where does this come from, this idea that there's this very fluid relationship of people to art as both creators and consumers?

Deborah Cullinan (15:40): I love this question. I mean, what comes to mind for me is that I think that in the arts we often focus a little bit too much on the product or the outcome and not so much on the process. And I think what people crave is some relationship to that process. And the more that people have that relationship on their own terms, in their own lives, the more that they will appreciate the product. So if you think about what we know, which is that arts organizations before the pandemic were challenged, audiences were declining, the structures of institutions were being challenged, we wondered about who these institutions were built for and who they might not be built for. And I think it's our opportunity now to imagine how connecting the process and cultivating creativity in everyone will ultimately result in more demand for the work that professional artists are doing.

Russ Altman (16:42): It makes so much sense. I learned how to play the guitar a little bit during the pandemic, and of course, I'm very average, below average, but my appreciation for guitar players has gone through the roof. And I think this is an example of what you're saying.

Deborah Cullinan (16:59): I think that's right. And when you think about wall text in a museum, when it's written in a way that you can comprehend it and it touches something in your life, you will recall that painting or that piece. You will understand it and have your own personal relationship to it. So it's that, but on a much bigger scale that I think we should be aiming for.

Russ Altman (17:20): This is The Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman, and we'll have more with Deborah Cullinan next.

(17:25): Welcome back to The Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman, and I'm speaking with Deborah Cullinan, Vice President of the Arts at Stanford University. In the last segment, Deborah told us that interest in art is strong and growing. She even told us that 20 minutes of exposure to art, either looking at it or creating it or listening to it can improve your health. It's like exercise, a little bit goes a long way. In this segment, she's going to tell us that technology and art have a pretty simple relationship, technology serves the art, which serves humanity. She'll also describe some of the artists and art programs that she's most excited about currently.

(18:07): Tell me about how you think about technology and the arts.

Deborah Cullinan (18:12): I mean, my very high level, simple answer to the question is that I think that we need to be thinking about what we are making, who we are making it for, how we're applying it, not how do artists use technology, but how do we apply technology to advance the greater good. I've been in a lot of conversations where I think we think about technology as a tool, and somehow it is ahead of us. And I think actually what artists can do is help us understand how to ethically apply technology and how to think about technology as a way to reach and engage more people. There are artists like Lauren Lee McCarthy who is just finishing up a residency at HAI now on Stanford's campus who are really thinking about these ethical questions around who owns the work, how is the work applied, who has access to it, who doesn't? And if people are going to be able to create art with artificial intelligence, what does that mean in terms of how we're thinking about the application of it?

Russ Altman (19:38): Is this a worry? Do artists look at technology and see opportunities or do they see disruption in competition and negative things?

Deborah Cullinan (19:49): I think it would probably depend, but for the most part, I think most artists would not feel that somehow technology is going to outcompete them. At the end of the day, the work is human-centered. We are creating because we are creative beings. And I think, as we were talking about in the pandemic, if artists were able to innovate and find ways to use the technology that we had at the time to make deeper connections, reach people where they were, why would we think they can't continue to do that? I think about people who were making work for stages that maybe they were reaching a couple hundred people, and through Zoom and other technologies, now they're reaching millions. So I think it's really about how human beings think about creativity as a unique and essential part of who we are.

Russ Altman (20:50): Yes, this actually comes out. I recently read a pretty popular biography of Leonardo da Vinci, and he was obsessed with the tools of his time. He was innovating in paints and paintbrushes and mechanisms like mechanical, but it was all in service of his somewhat human-centered approach to creating beautiful art. And that's a very reassuring way to think about it for me because it's like, no, we've been thinking about the interaction of art, whatever technology we have available and our artists and art ever since we've been doing art, which is ever since we've been existing. So not to worry, but maybe I'm being a little Pandora about that. I wanted to move to- Yeah, please.

Deborah Cullinan (21:34): If you don't mind, I think that it's a really helpful way to think about it, that we've always been managing technology, and there are certainly moments in history when we take great leaps and those leaps get ahead of us and we see what happens. And I can't remember the name of the writer, so I am sorry about that, but there's a quote that is used often that the only ethical use of technology is art.

Russ Altman (21:58): That could be a drop the mic moment. But unfortunately we still have five minutes, so it won't be. Okay. I wanted to go to some of the exciting art and artists that you're working with currently because there's nothing like the details and the specificity of current projects to let people's imagination really go crazy. So can you tell us about some art collaborations, projects, programs that you're developing, and who it's with?

Deborah Cullinan (22:24): Yeah, a couple things. We are right now bringing to fruition a collaboration with the artist Jean Shin and Desiree Lebo at Lebo Laboratories, who I think you know. And as Desiree is looking at infectious disease and really considering in particular bottles and plastic, which I think you've talked about on-

Russ Altman (22:47): Yes, this is an alumna of our show.

Deborah Cullinan (22:50): That's right. That's right. And Jean, who works with recycled materials, large scale public sculptures that are really designed to help people comprehend the consequences of our actions and really bring to life some of the issues that we face. So the combination of Jean and Desiree and a whole bunch of students here, and also in Kenya, working to reuse plastic materials in order for us to understand what happens when we overuse plastic, when we don't recycle it. And so we're going to see very large scale sculpture on campus near bioengineering.

Russ Altman (23:32): Which is where I work.

Deborah Cullinan (23:33): Yeah. And last I heard, Russ, there were more than 7,000 bottles involved. So that's really exciting. At Institute for Diversity in the Arts, we have artists in residence right now doing fellowships, and one of them is a longtime colleague of mine named Ellen Sebastian Chang. And Ellen is first and foremost a theater maker, but a real storyteller. And what she says often, and this goes back to what we were just talking about, is we as human beings, with all of our creative potential, have the entire universe as a collaborator. And it is upon us to do that collaboration in ways that help us be better stewards for ourselves, but also for the planet. And so having Ellen here on campus with the students has been a really extraordinary experience as well. Now, I could go on and on.

Russ Altman (24:25): Well, tell me, on Ellen, before we move on, what kind of media, what kind of stories is she telling and how is she telling those stories?

Deborah Cullinan (24:32): As I said, she's first and foremost a theater maker, and she and she's highly collaborative. She has worked with Amara Tabor Smith, who's also Stanford faculty teaching right now through taps. And they had a project called House Full of Black Women. This is a highly collaborative project, very place-based, where you bring together a number of Black women who are performers, choreographers, storytellers, poets, who are really doing the work of helping us understand where we are and where we're going. Very healing work, but also, I think, really important work in terms of equity and justice.

Russ Altman (25:14): You've talked about space, and because you just said place, I want to bring this up. You've talked about how even though we want art everywhere, as you know very well, there are spaces that are dedicated to art. And you've talked and written a little bit about how these are increasingly important spaces to protect because of their special nature. Can you tell me a little bit about those ideas?

Deborah Cullinan (25:36): Yeah. This came to me most significantly several years ago when I was at Yerba Buena Center for the Arts in San Francisco. And we were having a particularly intense fire season, which we are now getting used to here on the West Coast. And YBCA, the museum SFMOMA across the street, these might've been among the only places that you could come to where you could safely breathe. And it made me just think about how these institutions, and we have so many across this country in major cities and small towns, that are thought of as transactional places. You buy a ticket, you go in, you experience what somebody has determined is incredible, and then you leave. And what if we reimagined these as important parts of our community ecosystem? And what if they became, and many of them are becoming, community places where we're not just transacting, we're gathering, and we're gathering for safety, we're gathering to exchange goods and services. Many arts organizations are becoming places where you can vote. They're becoming places where you can pick up a basket of food and where you can access other services.

(26:51): And so my sense of the future is that we will transform all of these arts assets even more than they already have into these places of service.

Russ Altman (27:04): That's a fantastic and surprising perspective, but it does make sense and it will obviously lead to more exposure to the arts and all those benefits we were talking about before, and then whole new challenges about am I in an art mood or am I in a customer buying stuff mood, and what's the relationship between those?

Deborah Cullinan (27:26): Right. Well, I'd like to think that you can feel at home and you can feel a sense of respite. And I think about the Anderson collection and the Cantor on the Stanford campus, and I know that many students and faculty and staff wander over to those places for a moment to breathe.

Russ Altman (27:46): Yes, exactly. Perfect. Thanks to Deborah Cullinan. That was the future of art.

(27:54): If you enjoy the podcast, please consider subscribing or following it so you'll receive news of new episodes and you'll never be surprised by the future of anything. Maybe tell your friends about it as well, and definitely rate and review it on your favorite platform. We have more than 200 interviews in our archives, so you might want to check those out. There's a lot of good stuff. You can connect with me on Twitter at RB Altman and with Stanford Engineering at Stanford ENG.