The future of education
Education researcher Susanna Loeb studies the broad spectrum of learning experience, including ways to recruit and retain expert teachers, how to optimize classrooms, and the impact of technology on learning.
She says pandemic-inspired innovations in tutoring have led to greater student engagement and improved learning outcomes. And on the growing influence of AI in education, Loeb counts herself an optimist. She sees it as a tool for good, enhancing personalized learning and supporting teachers. These innovations that didn’t exist a few years ago stand to help students to thrive, Loeb tells host Russ Altman on this episode of Stanford Engineering’s The Future of Everything podcast.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Russ Altman: This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host Russ Altman. Since we started this show eight years ago, it's become an archive of amazing and impactful work by my Stanford colleagues. Research is not something that just happens in the lab, and as you'll hear on this show, the research at Stanford can impact areas like health, technology, law, and business, and many other topics that can affect everyday life. We hope you'll tune in to learn more about how research has the potential to help your life and to help the lives of people you care about in your family and your community.
[00:00:32] Susanna Loeb: I tend to think about how we can get students the experiences that really help them develop the capacities that they need to thrive, and we know a lot about that already, but we're not doing the greatest job of actually getting them those experiences. So when I think about these new tools, I think how can we use them so that we can make our education system better, so that we can provide students these experiences in ways that we haven't done before?
[00:01:08] Russ Altman: This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Russ Altman. Thanks for listening to the show. If you're enjoying it, please consider rating and reviewing it. A rating is a number. We like to get a five if we deserve it. And a review is some comments about what you think of the show that'll help us and others understand what it's all about. Today, Susanna Loeb will tell us that for education, it's the experience of the learner that matters. So when you're evaluating new educational opportunities, new classroom styles, new teachers, and especially new technology, it's all about the experience. It's the future of education. Today, we're continuing our feature, the Future
[00:01:44] In a Minute, after my interview with Susanna, I'll ask her some rapid-fire questions, she'll give us some rapid-fire answers, and that'll be the Future In a Minute. Before we get started, please remember to rate and review the show, we're very grateful for you listening and we'd love to hear your thoughts. There's a field of research called education research. In this field, researchers try to understand how to do education best. How do you set up the schools? How do you choose the teachers? How do you set the curriculum? How do you pay for everything? How do you govern it? And of course, how do you use technology?
[00:02:24] The questions here are quite relevant because the education of our children and our own continuing education as adults is absolutely critical for maintaining a population and a workforce that's ready for anything. Well, Susanna Loeb is a professor of education and a senior fellow at the Stanford Institute for Economic Policy Research. She's gonna tell us about how education research is grappling with the issues that came up in the pandemic, and also with the explosive issue of the use of AI in schools by both teachers and learners.
[00:02:58] Susanna, what drew you to a career in education research?
[00:03:02] Susanna Loeb: Oh, that's such a good question and actually kind of unexpected. I actually started thinking that I would do engineering and work in the environmental field. And, um, and then I, it, working in there for a while made me realize that even in that field, education was fundamental for the kinds of changes that we wanted to see in the world. And I just deeply believe that it's the basis of the society we live in and, and that's really what drew me to education.
[00:03:32] Russ Altman: Did you also have a desire to be an educator? 'Cause there's a little bit of a difference right to, of studying education versus being out in the field. And of course as a professor you do both, but was, was this a dual love or are you more interested in like, the theory of education than the practice? How do you, how do you grapple with all those issues?
[00:03:52] Susanna Loeb: Yeah, I do really love both. I think why I've, uh, loved my job so much is that I get to see the, the joy of the actual education, the relationships that develop, the, the excitement of learning new things. So I really like the, the human side of it, but I'm also drawn to trying to figure out how to get students the very best, and people, the very best experiences that they, they can have so that they learn and are so excited about the world around them. And so I, um. I really like the scale of the effect that we're able to have as, uh, as researchers and as, uh, working at kind of the systems level. But I'm always, uh, motivated by the kind of human interactions that I see in the work.
[00:04:41] Russ Altman: Great. Great. So for people who don't think about education research all the time, can you kind of as a, as a preface to the rest of our conversation, can you give us a sense of like, how do education researchers approach their jobs and like what are the big contemporary issues in education that are like getting your attention and, and others?
[00:04:58] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So, uh, of course there were huge range of education researchers. Some, some researchers work on really the neuroscience of learning. So how, how does the brain respond to, to different inputs? What is the, the, that's the very best way that a student can learn how to read. So there are those kinds of researchers. But then there are researchers like the, the research that I do that's more like how do we create education systems that are beneficial for students that engage and excite them, and also help them develop the skills that they need to thrive. So we think, I think very much about how do you recruit and retain excellent teachers.
[00:05:38] How do you set up classrooms so that students get the individual attention that they need, that they get those interaction opportunities with other students, all of those kinds of things. And how can you do that not just in one school, but across an entire nation or across, you know, globally so that, um, we, we all have this, these kinds of opportunities. Um, and some of the pressing questions right now, I mean, there are these great inequalities in access to, to the kinds of experiences that students need to thrive. So I think just a question of how you, uh, scale quality. How do you make sure everybody gets that is important. And then I think a little bit about what we're gonna talk about today, which is new technologies and both the opportunities and in some ways the threats that they, um, may pose for getting students, uh, these kinds of opportunities.
[00:06:35] Russ Altman: Yeah, you know, I had the pleasure of looking at some of your previous work just in preparing for our conversation and it's really impressive that you look at very like logistically important things and like, how is the school financed? How is the school run? How do people make the career choice? Um, and so it's been very broad and you know, very real. I can imagine that, uh, teachers in the, in the trenches would look at your, um, research program and say, yeah, that's what needs to be studied, because that's what affects their everyday life and their ability to do what they're passionate about. So it, it was very impressive.
[00:07:06] Okay, so, uh, we are definitely gonna talk about technology and I, but one way I want to get to it is, I know you've done a lot of stuff on tutoring and, uh, and effective tutoring. And from my understanding, it had a little bit or a lot to do with the pandemic as kind of a forcing function. So can you tell that story about how, um, your recent work in tutoring was kind of catalyzed by the pandemic? Although, you know, I don't wanna give the pandemic too much credit for anything.
[00:07:31] Susanna Loeb: Yeah, no, I think that's just right. So the pandemic happened and I think what really characterizes my research as you, as you can see, is I've worked on finance and teachers and school leadership and all sorts of different projects, but, but it's always been grounded in partnerships that I've had with districts around the country, with educators around the country. And from those kinds of partnerships, we, you could see immediately that this was different, that the pandemic really was different. Suddenly you had huge numbers of students who were disconnected from school, who had lost some kinds of learning. They, they knew part of it, but not some of it because they had been out.
[00:08:09] And so you really had to think what is the best way of addressing, uh, these kinds of needs? And, uh, so we went to the research literature and it's really not surprising because of the kind of clear logic, but intensive tutoring turned out to be clearly the most, um, effective approach for addressing these kinds of issues. So students who are disengaged, if they have an adult that they work with regularly at the right level, who teaches at the right level and also motivates and engages them, you can make dramatic changes. And the, the research was really clear on that. And so my work coming out of that was very much a really a question of how do you get this to as many kids as possible?
[00:08:55] What was fun about it is that everybody knows that it's the right approach. So all teachers would be like, of course this is what my students need. All parents felt it was just what they needed, what their children needed, but the struggle was that not everybody believed that they could actually do it. Could, is this something that we could really manage as a system at scale? And so we went out to study, um, what kind of programs are effective in different places? And then when places, when districts try to roll these out, try to build these, what, what are the barriers that get in the way? And how do they figure out how to get over them?
[00:09:35] And then what we could do is take these proof points of success and really bring them to other places around the country because we worked in, in so many places, um, that we could really see variation. So this is what worked in a rural place and here's what works in an urban place or, or in the South where the education systems are set up really quite differently than they are in California. So in both places we can see that. And so a lot of my work has been doing that and what's been so exciting is that we really have seen, um, access to this kind of relationship based, personalized instruction grow.
[00:10:14] Russ Altman: So, so I wanted to ask you, that, that's, it is very attractive and it's very intuitive, but of course the first thing you think of, especially at a systems level is, well, of course we would all like to get a one-on-one tutor, one-on-one tutor, but like, we just don't have the person power for, for the teachers. But, but one key thing that, that we, that goes into that calculation, I would guess, is like how much actual time does the tutor have to spend? So you could imagine that instead of having a, a teacher at a school give lectures to 20 students or 25 students, or whatever it is, that they could go around the room and, and that a short, brief little bursts of interaction with the students as they walk around the classroom might be more effective than, than 20 minutes talking to everybody or some kind of mix. So what is known about like the, the how high touch and how prolonged that tutoring relationship has to be and will it scale and do we have the, the, um, workforce to do all of this?
[00:11:10] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So I think that that's, that is a very good question and it varies a little bit with age. Um, but the the general findings, if you take all the hundred randomized control trials that have been done, is that you need about three times a week, and it should be, you know, half an hour to 45 minutes of tutoring. But if you're a, a young,
[00:11:34] Russ Altman: Oh, I don't mean to interrupt, but that is very reasonable. Like I can imagine that happening. It's, it's not, we need seven hour sessions every day or, like,
[00:11:42] Susanna Loeb: It's not 7 hour sessions every day. But even there and for young kids, they, they have shorter attention spans so that you can get it to them that way. The other thing is that I think we do have a workforce that we hadn't leveraged before that now we're being able to. So, for example, work study students in college have turned out to be wonderful tutors, teacher preparation programs, they used to observe for their first time in schools. Instead, they can tutor and get that great experience with students. So there's lots of opportunities for, uh, to get more adults into kids' lives.
[00:12:16] Russ Altman: Uh, that really is, that really is exciting and it, and it kind of makes sense. And, and I know one of the things you're working on is scaling this and, and, and this goes to a lot of your other previous research about like, how do you effectively disseminate a practice? I know that's been a big focus of yours, like, okay, we finally learned something that seems to be true and useful, and now we want everybody to do it. So what is the way, what are the knobs you have to turn to try to get an entire nation to adopt a new educational practice that you are sure is a good way to go?
[00:12:48] Susanna Loeb: Yeah, I mean, it's kind of tricky. Um, so I think we have, I mean, the thing to know about our education system is it's hugely decentralized. So the, the biggest decision makers really are at the district level. They make a lot of decisions, but we have, you know, more than 12,000 districts in the country. And so that's a lot of people to reach, right? Uh, the way that, that we have tried to do it, no, nobody's gonna pay attention really to a professor. You want to know from someone, tell me about it, your job, what's, who's gonna do it?
[00:13:17] So really our goal has been to study places that have, that have the potential to do it well, see if they've done it well, and then to have those people, uh, bring it out to the world. So you can be, they can be proof points. Um, and those proof points are really powerful. I do think research on what typical barriers are to getting it done and then, uh, really clear, we, we create a lot of materials for districts where they take, we take the research and try to, to help them recognize where they might run into problems and how they might get over it. And so having those materials, the champions for it, and the proof points are really, really helpful.
[00:14:00] Russ Altman: Is every time you have to disseminate, do you have to build a, like a dissemination plan and network fresh, or is there some sort of existing infrastructure of communication that allows you to kind of use that, uh, each time there's something useful?
[00:14:15] Susanna Loeb: Uh, there, you know, the, these, uh, there are networks out there, I guess is, is my answer to that. That, that we begin to make, uh, connections and partnerships with people who have influence. They can get this, this kind of thing out. The, the tricky thing is becoming a trusted source of information and we work really hard to be a trusted source, to make sure that we're really thoughtful about variation that's out there, about the challenges people have in their job, and to provide supports that help them make the, help them make the decisions that they wanna make.
[00:14:50] Russ Altman: Great. So I do wanna move to technology because many people listening might think, okay, this sounds like something that maybe technology could help with. So what, what is, I guess, what is your relationship to technology and, and how, as an education researcher do you look at, um, some of the obvious explosive things that have become available in the last couple of years?
[00:15:11] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So, you know, in working with all these districts on tutoring, we got a chance to talk with, with, we regularly get a chance to talk with lots of school leaders and district leaders, and there was just a real demand that developed to, to, uh, for them to better understand what their options are, what the, what their worry should be about the new technologies.
[00:15:32] So while we were doing all this tutoring there was suddenly a demand to, to deal with AI in schools. And so we have something called the AI for Education Hub as part of the scale initiative that I run. And um, we are really interested in both doing the research to try to understand the best uses of these tools for students, and then helping, um, school leaders, state leaders make a best use of, of, of these kinds of tools.
[00:16:00] Russ Altman: Yeah. So maybe can you tell me like, what's the landscape right now? It strikes me that if you're thinking about AI and of, of, of course, chatbots and stuff like that, it's a little bit of like flying, uh, building the plane while it's flying because, uh, whether or not you recommend various technologies or recommend against them, we know that they're out there. So could you just for, as we start this conversation, what's the landscape that you see of usage? And I'm really interested from the very beginning, like the kindergartners, uh, up through high school and, and college. Um, what, what are you seeing as an educator?
[00:16:31] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So, uh, schools in the, in the US, in schools, most of the use is by teachers and administrators and not given directly to students. Certainly students are using Grammarly and some of these tools, but not, uh, it's not really built in as much to their day-to-day lives. But for teachers, they are, they're, they're these tools that are helping them, um, write letters home in different languages or helping them create lesson plans that differentiate. All of those kinds of things are already really in the classroom in many, many places. Um, evidence about effectiveness is really low.
[00:17:15] We just did a review of the research. We have a repository at the, at the Hub for all research on, uh, AI in, in education. Since ChatGPT came out basically, so the last few years and, um, only 20 of those studies really are, uh, believable causal effect studies of, of how, um, these tools are, um, affecting either students or teachers. And what, what you see is, um, that they are time saving for for teachers. And so there's some potential there, but I real, but there are very few studies for, on K12 students just 'cause they don't use them very much. That said, there's a lot of use outside of school so that we do have to think about changing homework assignments and things like that to meet them.
[00:18:04] But I think the big takeaway is that we are working in a space where we know very little, where things are happening really quickly and that it's gonna be important to set up ways of learning and adjusting quickly in real time, uh, because of these changes in a way that we've never had to do before. And, and so that is kind of our goal in what we're doing is to figure out how can we become a learning system and not let what's happened in social media and the negative effects that we've seen there, uh, be repeated with, uh, these AI tools for education.
[00:18:42] Russ Altman: This is The Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman, and we'll have more with Susanna Loeb next. Welcome back to The Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman and I'm speaking with Susanna Loeb from Stanford University. In the last segment, we had an introduction to research and education, and we heard about how tutoring had a moment during the pandemic, which now has ongoing good effects on our understanding about how to best do tutoring. In this segment, I want to ask Susanna more about how AI is being implemented, how she thinks about the use of technologies like AI and some of the work she's doing with the AI companies to really understand how it can best be used to advance the education of both youth and adult learners.
[00:19:37] So, Susanna, as you approach AI, like what's the way you think about it with respect to its impacts on education? Because it's multifactorial, as you said, the teachers are using it. We know the students are increasingly thinking about it. How do you approach it?
[00:19:52] Susanna Loeb: Yeah, so I tend to think about how we can get students the experiences that really help them develop the capacities that they need to thrive. And we know a lot about that already, but we're not doing the greatest job of actually getting the most experiences. So when I think about these new tools, I think how can we use them so that we can make our education system better, so that we can provide students these experiences, um, in ways that we haven't done before. So for example, while we know that students, uh, learn much better if they're taught at the right level, so that we're actually teaching them right above what they already know, we have a very hard time doing that, and maybe AI can help us do that. And because it can differentiate.
[00:20:40] Similarly, we, we know that things like apprenticeships can be really motivating for students, but we all often have a hard time, uh, making those happen well because there are lots of logistical factors involved and we don't also do a very good job of measuring whether students are learning in those situations. So we can't, uh, scaffold them and push them forward in that learning. And so I think how can we change the, these kinds of, uh, opportunities for students by, by using these kind of new tools that have this great ability to, um, do things like differentiate and deal with really complex, um, organizational matters.
[00:21:23] Russ Altman: Yeah, and I could imagine if you're doing research on AI and education or like with chatbots, like ChatGPT or something, and it's competitors, um, one thing you could do is control trials. Like in medicine we do this all the time. You know, there's an intervention group that gets it and another group that doesn't. And you could look at differences, but you can also, we do this in medicine as well, do what we call like observational things where you just let stuff happen and you look at the people who did whatever and the people who did whatever else and compare them. Um, what's happening in terms of, uh, trying to gather this information and is there appropriate support for doing these studies?
[00:22:00] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So in education it's, it's really hard to compare students who lose, who use a tool more those who use it less because those students are so fundamentally different. That the ones who use it more, almost invariably would've done better anyway. So it is important to, um, try to make a fair comparison and randomization is the best way. Historically what we've done is prepared, uh, far in advance for this kind of randomization, and, uh, then followed students for many years after. We don't have that kind of timeframe right now because the tools are changing so fast. Which is, which is both great because they could get better, but also scary 'cause we wanna know if something is gonna have a negative effect.
[00:22:48] So I think the trick now is to treat them more as AB tests, still randomizing. So we still get around that problem of the students who take it up being really different, but we do it in a fast way. In order to do that, we really need to set ourselves up to do it. So it's important to do it kind of in partnership with both the industry who has these tools and the schools and districts who have the ability to, to work with students, uh, with the tools. And then, you know, make the test, see if you can get it better, do a test again, and keep that kind of learning process going.
[00:23:22] Russ Altman: Yeah. And, and in my prep, I, I came across an article about a collaboration you had, I think with OpenAI. Uh, can you tell me about like how that works?
[00:23:31] Susanna Loeb: Yeah, so that is really just starting. We are partnering with them on their global rollout of ChatGPT in schools, both the regular version of ChatGPT for teachers, but also a really study version for students that's more Socratic. And we are hoping to test the, the tool and to make those tools better over time, with, of course, OpenAI does the making the tools better. But also in, in relation to the kind of work we do, see how they can be used in classrooms. Is it better if you use it this way or that way? Do the students learn more if you, uh, encourage them to, to use it to, um, to write or to, uh, learn a concept better. How, how do we really use it so that the, the students are developing skills and not just, uh, doing what they call cognitive offloading, which is letting the tool do things for them instead.
[00:24:29] Russ Altman: So is there any chance that they would ever like, share some of their data? Of course, you would have to make it, you know, deanonymized, so you're not looking at individual kids. But it seems to me that they might have through their logs, so to speak, lots of examples of this that you could make hay out of. But I don't know if, if they're, if they're set up for data sharing.
[00:24:48] Susanna Loeb: Yes, they, they are definitely set up for data sharing, and we will be doing, we will do that. So the first rollout internationally is in Estonia and it's just happening, last week and this week is really the first part of it. But we will have access to, you know, anonymized data linked, we are collecting a lot of measures of, of student learning, um, and development outside of the tool as well. So we can compare that to how they're interacting on the tool, um, to see which students are taking it up, how they develop when they're taking it up, and, and questions like that.
[00:25:26] Russ Altman: So an, an obvious question, uh, given our, the, the first segment, uh, about tutoring is how do AI, how does AI, like the study mode or whatever, what, what, what's your assessment of the, of the possibility that that half hour or more every, every three days might be able to at least be augmented with some AI?
[00:25:47] Susanna Loeb: Yeah. So there's already some evidence of that, um, and some tutoring programs that used to be four days a week have tried, instead of being four days a week with a human tutor, be two days a week with a human tutor and two days a week with, um, computer assisted learning. And they found really quite good results with that. Um, I think the, the human on the two days a week are really motivating for the students, which encourage 'em to work on the platform, um, on their own, on those other two days. Uh, the trick is we also see a lot of evidence of really low takeup of tools when you don't have that kind of motivating human. So I don't think we're anywhere near a situation where we would wanna replace, uh, the tutor in this kind of tutor tutoring.
[00:26:36] Because you're talking about students generally who are disengaged in school and they rarely kind of volunteer into more work, more schoolwork, because it generally hasn't been at their right level and hasn't really met their needs. Um, you need that human to pull them in, but I think there are these great ways of combining the two to make, to make the humans more effective, both by kind of that additional time students are on the computer assisted learning, but also just supports for tutors. We did a little AI chatbot for tutors, uh, that help them respond to students' mathematical mistakes and found that it was really quite effective. The students learned more when the tutors got feedback about how to improve their instruction.
[00:27:22] Russ Altman: Yeah, I could really imagine, I mean, just with my own usage of it, that like the, uh, human could look at the transcript of, or a summary of the interaction that happened with the, with the, with the chat bot and could say, okay, in today's session I could see that they had a problem in this area. Let's focus on that. They, they could also then, as you said, motivate, 'cause humans are very good at motivating other humans better than AI, in some ways and in many ways, um, but you also could imagine that the chatbot look could look at a transcript of the human interaction and say, okay, I see what they were working on. I'll build on that. So it, it does become pretty interesting, um, in terms of, uh, these two different like partners.
[00:28:00] Susanna Loeb: Exactly. And there are a couple of groups who are working on creating AI tutors that are a little more like human tutors so that there's a curriculum and they're moving along the curriculum. That's very different than the kind of tutor that even the education mode of ChatGPT is, where the students have to bring the questions or have to bring the topics and be able to express what they're struggling with. Um, so, uh, both of these things can be effective, but in terms of students actually learning, uh, um, a full set of content, it's this other kind of tutoring that is more similar to the humans that I think holds a lot of promise. But I don't think we're quite there yet at motivating disengaged students with, uh, even those, those, um, more curricular based tutors.
[00:28:54] Russ Altman: Great. And, and as we finish up, I think the final big question is what do we need to do as a society to get to better education? Using AI, but just using all of the things that you and your colleagues are, uh, discovering about education, what's the path, uh, that we all need to follow? I like to end with easy questions.
[00:29:12] Susanna Loeb: No, right. I was like, oh, that's a hard one. So, I mean, I'm a, I'm a believer in kind of optimism and, um, keeping in, keeping, you know, the North Star in view. What is it that we really want for our students? How do we, um, how do we create opportunities for them that allow them to get there? And then how do we make sure all students have those opportunities? How do we, uh, go first to the places that, uh, where students are not getting, uh, good schooling and not get, not being engaged in school and seeing what can we do in those places. Uh, learning from them too about what really can work. So I think the way forward is kind of like, the way, uh, we've been trying for a long time, is just to keep our goals in mind, work really hard, and try to create systems that are flexible, and, uh, supportive so that, uh, students can really thrive.
[00:30:13] Russ Altman: It, it, it wasn't clear to me that I would be talking to somebody who's optimistic about AI in education because we've seen a lot of, um, kind of worries about it. So it actually is very heartening to see that an education researcher thinks that this could be part of the solution.
[00:30:28] Susanna Loeb: I, I am hopeful. I know there are, uh, barriers in the way, and I think we have to be honest about those barriers and get over them, but we are not providing perfect education as we are now, and we could do so much better if we just really thought about, uh, the systems that we need, and the flexible systems that we need in order to, to get to where we wanna go.
[00:30:51] Russ Altman: Great. Well, thanks so much. And, and before we wrap up and finish, I wanna do our, our, our segment that we call Future In a Minute. So first I want to ask, uh, this is where I ask you a few short questions and you give me a few short answers, and I'm wondering if you're ready to do that.
[00:31:06] Susanna Loeb: I am ready to do that.
[00:31:07] Russ Altman: Awesome. Okay. Here's the, here's the questions. What is one thing that gives you the most hope about the future?
[00:31:14] Susanna Loeb: So I think that's, uh, what gives me the most hope is how many people are working really incredibly hard to create better opportunities for students. And some of them are using new technologies, but almost all of it is still, still builds on the power of strong relationships between educators and students.
[00:31:31] Russ Altman: What's one thing you want people to walk away from this episode remembering?
[00:31:36] Susanna Loeb: Uh, that we actually know a lot about the experiences that help young people learn and thrive. And the real challenge and opportunity is figuring out how to make those experiences possible for every student.
[00:31:48] Russ Altman: Aside from money, what is the one thing you need to succeed in your research?
[00:31:52] Susanna Loeb: Uh, well, it's clearly partnerships. I need partnerships with educators. I need partnerships with industry. If we wanna improve learning in real time, we need researcher schools and technology developers to be working together.
[00:32:05] Russ Altman: If all goes well, what does the future look like?
[00:32:08] Susanna Loeb: Uh, students will have deeply engaging learning experiences, uh, working on meaningful problems, collaborating with others, developing the curiosity, and all the other skills they need for life beyond school.
[00:32:22] Russ Altman: If you were starting over again and you needed to get your degree or your certification in a different discipline, what would that be?
[00:32:30] Susanna Loeb: Uh, honestly, I'd probably keep the same interdisciplinary path. So I've moved from political science and engineering to education and economics for graduate work. Uh, plus every day I interact with people across an even wider range. So maybe I'd add music to this. I'd love more music in my life and to really be able to play an instrument, but I love what I do.
[00:32:54] Russ Altman: Thanks to Susanna Loeb. That was the future of education. Thank you for listening to this episode. Please follow so that you always hear about new episodes and you never miss the future of anything. Also, don't forget, we have 300 episodes and more in the back catalogue so you can listen to a wide variety of topics on The Future of Everything. You can follow me on many social media such as LinkedIn, Bluesky, Mastodon, and Threads where I'm @RussBAltman, or @RBAltman. And you can also follow the School of Engineering at Stanford, @StanfordSchoolOfEngineering, or shorter @StanfordENG.
