The future of fashion and dress codes
Legal expert Richard Ford studies the intersection of dress codes and the law.
Clothing and hairstyles communicate power, identity, and social status, he says. Legal restrictions on dress stretch at least to the Middle Ages when “sumptuary laws” stipulated what one could wear by rank. Today, written rules have given way to unwritten codes that are in many ways more powerful culturally. Fashion is not trivial, he says, and no less worthy of study than high art or music. Clothing shapes everything, Ford tells host Russ Altman on this episode of Stanford Engineering’s The Future of Everything podcast.
Transcript
[00:00:00] Russ Altman: This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host Russ Altman. Since we started this show 8 years ago, it's become an archive of amazing and impactful work by my Stanford colleagues. Research is not something that just happens in the lab, and as you'll hear on this show, the research at Stanford can impact areas like health, technology, law, and business, and many other topics that can affect everyday life. We hope you'll tune in to learn more about how research has the potential to help your life and to help the lives of people you care about in your family and your community.
[00:00:33] Rich Ford: Fashion is an essential part of culture and of the human experience. It's not trivial, it's not superficial, and it's no less worthy of study than, uh, high art or music.
[00:00:52] Russ Altman: This is Stanford Engineering's The Future of Everything, and I'm your host, Russ Altman. If this podcast brings you value or is just entertaining, one of the best ways to support us is to rate and review, just press the like button. That would be great and would help us grow the show and spread the news about The Future of Everything. Today, Rich Ford will tell us that how we dress, and how we're expected to dress, our key signals in our community and have a history dating back to the Middle Ages. It's the future of dress codes. Just a reminder that today we're continuing our feature, the Future In a Minute. At the end of our conversation, I'll ask Rich a few questions and he's gonna give me a few quick answers.
[00:01:32] Before we get started, please remember to rate, review and like the podcast. That'll be super helpful to us. Hopefully we're bringing you some value. Every day when we wake up, most of us have to make a decision about what to wear. Some people think, I have full freedom. I can wear whatever I want. Other people have specific rules about what they need to wear at work or in whatever environment they're gonna be spending the day. Who wrote those rules? Why did they write those rules? Are they fair? Do we have to obey them? These are good questions. And Rich Ford is a professor of law at Stanford University and an expert on fashion dress codes and how they manifest themselves in society and in the law.
[00:02:21] Rich, you're a law professor, so how did you wind up getting interested in fashion and dress codes?
[00:02:27] Rich Ford: Well, there are two reasons. One's professional and one's personal. Uh, the professional reason is I teach classes on civil rights, constitutional law, and you'd be surprised at the number of cases that involve clothing and dress codes. You have cases where employers are, uh, sued by their employees for dress codes that are potentially discriminatory on the basis of race or sex or religion.
[00:02:54] Um, you also have cases of students, for instance, suing their high school administration over dress codes, either for discrimination or because they are restriction on freedom of speech. Uh, every year there are disputes over prom, at prom time, where a high school dress code means that some, uh, student gets sent home from prom. And, um, sometimes there are lawsuits, sometimes there aren't lawsuits. But the number of disputes was quite surprising.
[00:03:22] Russ Altman: Wow. Okay. So that, that's a great answer. And I'm now all on board, uh, if I wasn't already. Uh, so, so let me, let me ask, I, we only have a limited time, but can you give me a little history of dress codes? When did we start doing them? What, what, why did they happen and what are they meant to, like signal?
[00:03:42] Rich Ford: So I begin my research in, uh, the late Middle Ages around the, the end of the 1300's. And, um, this is a time that some historians describe as the birth of fashion. So you're getting a lot of clothing that is tailored for, um, uh, kind of the first time in Europe, a lot of tailored clothing that's very expressive and you can, you know, create like ruffled collars and, and big puffy sleeves and things like that. And, um, that becomes a status symbol. So, people of high status have tailored clothing that's elaborate. It uses as sumptuous fabrics. You know, if you think about the kind of clothing you see in a portrait of, let's say Henry VIII or Queen Elizabeth.
[00:04:24] Um, that high status clothing then is a way to communicate to everybody, you know, I'm the monarch, I'm have the right to rule. I'm a fancy aristocrat. You should pay attention to me. Uh, but you also have richer people who aren't, uh, aristocrats, commoners are making a lot of money. The economy's booming. They start wearing this clothing too, and it's a problem for the social order because now you can't tell who's the aristocratic and who's just a commoner who made a lot of money. So they pass laws. Um, they're often referred to as sumptuary laws regulating who can wear what according to their social rank. And those are the first, uh, serious and elaborate dress codes.
[00:05:06] Russ Altman: Really interesting. So I was gonna ask if these dress codes tend to be formalized as, as you just described, or I, I'm guessing there was also informal aspects of dress codes where it wasn't legislated, but people knew what they were kind of supposed to, I'm using scare quotes, supposed to wear. And, and I, and I know you've looked at the differences and similarities between those two kind of sources of pressure on people.
[00:05:32] Rich Ford: Yeah, absolutely. So looking at, you know, as a lawyer, I got interested in the written dress codes and I was actually surprised to find just how many of them there were. How widespread and how detailed and elaborate. But that definitely carried over to, um, informal dress codes or dress codes, for instance, that were enforced through religious authority or religious strictures, often having to do with, let's say, female modesty.
[00:05:56] Sometimes that was actually legislated and written down, but it was also just understood that, you know, where respectable, modest women dressed in a particular way. And as you move forward in history, um, when you get past, let's say the 1600's or so, the written dress codes start to kind of fall off and become much less, um, numerous and less frequently enforced, but the unwritten dress codes become even more powerful as a signal of whether you are the right kind of person and you know what's appropriate to wear.
[00:06:28] Russ Altman: Very interesting. So when, when I think about dress codes, I always think about teenagers because I think that's when, and, and what, what is so impressive, and anybody who has talked to somebody, is the teenagers who are subject to a dress code always know exactly where the boundaries are. And in my experience, they love to go right, first of all, they know all the loophole. And they also love to go right to the boundary. Like if it has to be, be if a hem has to be at a certain point, they will be within millimeters of that rule. Especially if there's enforcement. So have, have you looked at that? Because it, it's, I, I think, I think you have, this is a form of self-expression. People like to self-express and even when there's a powerful dress code, they will work within that code, in my experience, with incredible kind of creativity.
[00:07:14] Rich Ford: Absolutely. Absolutely. High school students, even if there's a uniform, so they all have to wear exactly the same thing, they're, they always find a way to tweak it. They go and they sew the skirt in a different way so that it fits differently. It's tighter. It, it's shorter. Um, you, yeah, they are, they're very aware of the rules and find ways to kind of subvert the purpose. So if the rule, you know, usually in high school it's about female modesty. I mean, that's most of the high school dress codes, they're making sure the girls are covered up. Um, and there's a lot to be said about the sexism of that, but the practical effect is the girls are always finding a way to tweak the dress code, to do exactly what the people who wrote the dress code didn't want, while still complying with the, the letter of the law, if you will.
[00:08:01] Russ Altman: So, so, okay. So you, you had us in the Middle Ages, which is actually shocking that, that that's so early the, the birth of fashion. Um, have there been, um, in, in your assessment in the, in the last 500, 600, 700 years, have there been some sea change moments where things have happened that are notable with respect to the kind of the history of dress codes, either written or not written?
[00:08:23] Rich Ford: Absolutely. Yes. I mean, a big moment occurs in the late 1700's. It's a moment that some historians describe as the great masculine renunciation. And what happens then? So the men before the 1700's, um, the men are all getting the, um, they're the most fashionable. They're getting the sexiest fashions, you know, they're showing their legs. There's a lot of talk about, you know, men's legs and their shapely legs. Um, men are wearing high heels. They wear makeup, they wear jewelry. You know, all of this stuff is, um, first and foremost masculine, and women are kind of trailing behind in terms of fashion.
[00:08:59] You get to the late 1700's and there's a radical shift where the men begin to dress in the way that we now think of men typically dressing. Sober, practical, the three piece suit comes into view as a fashion. Dark colors, they get rid of the jewelry, they get rid of the powdered wigs. All of this. And it's reflecting changes in political values. So as you move from the old regimes that are about aristocracy and honor and flamboyance to the enlightenment, where the civic values are sobriety and civic virtue and, um, industriousness men's clothing shifts in order to reflect that.
[00:09:42] Russ Altman: When did the women pick up? 'Cause a lot of the things you just described, legs, high heels, you know, we now know as things, we now associate as, um, uh, some of the ways that some women dress. So when did that switch happen and how did it happen?
[00:09:57] Rich Ford: So one thing that happens is that fashionable women and the daring women copy elements of men's fashion. Uh, and so, and it's, it's something that's kind of a racy thing to do. So, you know, high heeled shoes are an, are an example where they started, at least in Europe as, um, horse riding shoes. The Persian equestrians came to Europe and they wore these high heeled shoes. The heels fit into the stirrup and, you know, and they were like macho military guys and very, very sexy.
[00:10:25] And everyone wanted to copy them. So the men started wearing these high heeled shoes. Um, later, some daring women started to wear high heeled shoes, but when you get the great masculine renunciation, the men leave a lot of these flashy things behind, and the women then carry on with them. So, you know, everything from high heels, a woman couldn't show her legs in public until really the early 20th century without it being scandalous. But now, of course, we associate, you know, shapely legs with women's fashion.
[00:10:57] Russ Altman: So, okay, so this is, this is really fascinating, but I want to get to kind of one of the big, I think a big elephant in the room, which, which is a dress code, especially when it's, especially when it's written down, and especially when it's seriously enforced, is clearly meant, tell me if I'm wrong, to be some sort of, um, subjugation. Like, uh, we are in, we're in control and we want you, the masses to do and act certain ways. And so I just wanted to ask, has it been effective? Is this something you would recommend to a despot, either a despot who's a high school, a high school principal, or a leader of a government? Are these effective?
[00:11:36] Rich Ford: Well, it's a mix. I mean, and to some extent they are effective. And, uh, some of these dress codes in the early period, you know, the Renaissance, late Middle Ages, they were strictly enforced. People were punished for them, and they had the effect of making most people, um, recognizable according to social rank. But you know, I think this is what you're getting at, they also had the opposite effect. You know, so at the same time, they, um, really encouraged people to push the boundaries, break the rules, and most of all, to develop modes of dress where they were, what happened in the, um, the Renaissance period is that the bourgeoisie, the wealthy bourgeoisie, um, started to assert their own social status. So rather than saying we are aristocrats, they're saying, you know, we are wealthy bourgeois and we are important too. And I think that started the decay of the old aristocratic regime, that over time the idea that the common person deserved respect, um, was a really corrosive idea for authority. So it may have backfired in that sense.
[00:12:44] Russ Altman: Interesting. And I, and when I was preparing for our conversation, I was very excited. I wanted to ask you, and I don't know if this is a fair question, I wanted to ask you about hair, because I think hair is kind of part of fashion. Is that inbounds for you or is that like, Russ, you have to get another guest if you wanna talk about hair.
[00:13:01] Rich Ford: No, I can talk a little bit about hair. I mean particularly because, um, for long periods in history, hair was literally fashion in the sense that it involved wigs. So, the powdered wig, the long wig, um, the, um, the Kings of France in particular, uh, there was a myth that the, uh, the, the, the noble classes, um, had this long flowing hair and it was a sign of their masculine virility. But in fact, they're all wearing these long powdered wigs. Um, you know, or sometimes powdered, sometimes not. Um, so wigs were a huge thing. They got shorter over time. Um, and so when you get to like the era of, um, let's see, Benjamin Franklin or George Washington, where it's a little short wig.
[00:13:44] Um, and, and, and eventually that's a, all of that is a symbol of one's position about, um, aristocracy and class hierarchy. Um, you know, today, of course hair is a huge issue as well. Some of those workplace dress codes that I mentioned earlier, uh, involve hair. Like African American women with all braided hairstyles, um, and an employer says that's not professional. Um, so there's a fight over that that has to do with a cultural misunderstanding, uh, in terms of what the hair signifies. Um, long hair for men. Some of the first legal disputes around, um, sex-based dress codes were hippies, you know, were men wearing long hair where the employer said, men had to have the haircut above the collar. So yeah, hair is a big thing.
[00:14:32] Russ Altman: I mean, growing up in the sixties, we were all very aware of the Beatles and the doors that they opened with their haircuts.
[00:14:40] Rich Ford: Yeah.
[00:14:40] Russ Altman: And if you look at a bunch of pictures from the 1968 grammar school, it just looks like a bunch of Ringos, Pauls, Johns, Georges. Um, you mentioned, um, uh, a braided hair and I, and you have written about civil rights and dress code. And there's interesting stories that I, I want to get to. Obviously even thinking about hair, the Afro was a statement in the sixties. And so what, what, what can you tell us about, um, civil rights and dress code and, and the tensions and, and, and maybe the progress that was made because of these issues?
[00:15:12] Rich Ford: Yes. Well, this, the, the early, well, early, the mid-century, mid 20th century civil rights movement, um, lunch counter sit-ins, uh, and, and things like that. They basically had a dress code. You'll, if you look at the pictures. People are in their Sunday best. The men are wearing suits and ties. The women are wearing skirts and nylons and heels. And from today's perspective, you know, you'd think they're gonna be running away from, you know, racist mobs or have the fire hose. Why would they wear, you know, this type of clothing, but it really was a statement and a demand for respect. You know, we deserve the respect that this clothing signifies. And wearing that clothing is a confrontation for the, you know, white supremacist power structure.
[00:15:58] But it was really clear that they, you know, people were expected to dress in this way. Um, you mentioned the Afro, so you move forward in history a little bit. Uh, and one thing that happens is that African American activists start to understand that, um, grooming and self-image are an important part of the liberation struggle. That if you feel inferior because you don't look like the Vogue fashion model, that's psychologically debilitating. And so the Black is Beautiful Movement was all about saying, you know, we're not gonna try to conform to white standards of beauty. Women don't need to straighten their hair. Um, and the Afro was a statement of that, you know, this is a haircut that only we can have. Um, you know, most white people can't do it. And, and it looks great and we're proud of it.
[00:16:48] Russ Altman: And, and I'm sure there was case, there were cases in, in the legal system about this, um, for forever, uh, around that time. 'Cause it was, it would've been a way to fight a battle about this.
[00:17:00] Rich Ford: Oh yeah, absolutely. So, you know, the same dress codes that for, um, you know, white men with straight hair prohibited, um, long hair, they also applied to black men in particular, where the Afro hairstyle is considered unprofessional. And, and then with women, um, similarly, no Afros, that's a, you know, black radical style, um, not professional. So what are your options? Well, you can cut your hair very short. Um, or you can straighten it and so that, oh, you know, again, sent a demeaning message and was the subject of a lot of litigation and dispute.
[00:17:38] Russ Altman: This is The Future of Everything with Russ Altman. We'll have more with Rich Ford next. Welcome back to The Future of Everything. I'm Russ Altman and I'm speaking with Rich Ford from Stanford University. In the first segment, we got the basics of dress codes, both written and unwritten. In this segment, we're gonna ask Rich, first of all, what was the second reason he got into this field? But also, what about issues of gender and what about issues of reverse snobbery? What's the future of fashion and dress codes look like? Don't forget, at the end of the episode, I will ask Rich a few rapid fire questions. He'll give us some answers, and that will be the Future In a Minute.
[00:18:29] So Rich, I was thinking in, uh. I think at the beginning of our conversation, you said there were two reasons and we went really deep into the first reason about why you were attracted to this topic. I wanna give you a chance to tell us what the second reason was.
[00:18:41] Rich Ford: That's right. I dropped the second reason. So, so the personal, the second reason's personal. Um, my father was a very. Uh, fashionable, snappy dresser. I guess you, you wouldn't have said fashionable, but he, uh, dressed very well. He cared about his appearance. I noticed this as a kid, and one of the things that I started to notice was that, you know, one, he did it because it was, you know, fun and enjoyable, but there was a serious reason, which was you know, he was the first African American in many of the professional environments that he operated in. Uh, you know, we, he started, uh, as a, a college administrator in the early 1970s. And, um, dressing well was a sign of self-respect and a way of commanding respect from others. And I could see that growing up. And so it made me understand that clothing and attire are important. They're not trivial, and they're not superficial.
[00:19:35] Russ Altman: Was this always, um, uh, unwritten or, and unstated, or did you and your dad actually have discussions about this?
[00:19:42] Rich Ford: Um, it was mainly unstated, but you know, he was very insistent that there is an appropriate way for professionals to dress and you were doing yourself and others a disservice if you don't do that. And, um, and, and over time I could see that race and respect was a significant part of that.
[00:20:04] Russ Altman: Have, uh, I just can't help but ask, did this rub off on you? And, and do you like think about fashion? Do you buy, uh, do you think about this when you're choosing your shoes or your jackets or whatever? Or is that not your thing?
[00:20:17] Rich Ford: Oh, yeah. No, no. Absolutely I do. I mean, it did rub off, it took time. You know, I went through a whole series of like kind of punk rock phases and hip hop phases that my dad hated. But, um, you know, now as a professional, absolutely. I find I would feel, um, quite uncomfortable if I didn't feel I was appropriately dressed to give a lecture to a group of students or in a professional setting.
[00:20:40] Russ Altman: Great. So a topic that you've talked about, uh, and written about that I think is really interesting is this idea of reverse snobbery, uh, and dressing and dress in fashion. What does that mean?
[00:20:52] Rich Ford: Yeah, so this is something that we actually see a lot in the, um, in the academy, but you see it in Silicon Valley as well. It's rather than, um, dressing well to show status, you dress down to show status, you dress casually, um, or even sloppily to show status. There's an old joke that, um, you know, if you go to a academic conference, you know who the Ivy League professors are 'cause they're the worst dressed people in the room. Um, but part of the idea is, you know, I can afford to, you know, I don't need to care what other people think of me because I have high status.
[00:21:24] Um, the red sneakers effect. There was a, a study that showed that students thought that a professor who dressed in some weird, quirky way, like wearing red sneakers, um, they, they had a higher opinion of the professor than one who wore, let's say, a business suit in well polished shoes. 'Cause they picked up on the idea that, you know, well if he's doing something quirky or she's doing something quirky, they must be high status.
[00:21:48] Russ Altman: So, so the reverse snobbery, uh, it's not just the attitude of the person who's displaying the reverse snobbery. It actually works. It sounds like you're saying that the, the students not only perceived, the red sneakers were kind of a little funky, but then they, uh, they turned it into perhaps higher evaluations at the end of the, at the end of the semester.
[00:22:07] Rich Ford: That's exactly right. Yeah.
[00:22:09] Russ Altman: You know, there's an, this as an aside, there is an amazing literature on things that help and things that hurt your teaching evaluations. You know, you and I live in a world where we're evaluated for our teaching and I've read about chocolate cake, I've, well, I've certainly read about gender, and now I know that I need to go buy some red shoes.
[00:22:26] Rich Ford: Exactly.
[00:22:28] Russ Altman: Um, the other thing I wanted to ask you about, actually, speaking of red shoes, um, is the, the role of, um, dress and dress codes and gender. Uh, we've, uh, touched upon it a little bit, but let's go right to it. Uh, what are the, what are the dynamics there that you're seeing?
[00:22:44] Rich Ford: Well, you see, like after the great masculine renunciation that I mentioned before, what happens is women are the ones who are wearing the glitzy clothing, the elaborate clothing. Men cast that off. And, uh, as a consequence, women are taken less seriously because their clothing signifies that they're decorative, they're frivolous, uh, whereas men are either sober and practical and reasonable. Um, not only that, but of course the women's clothing is often just physically quite cumbersome. You know, they're long, uh, and, and full skirts that's hard to move around it.
[00:23:22] Russ Altman: There's an ad going around on TV of some woman getting a corset tightened and it looks like torture, basically.
[00:23:28] Rich Ford: Right. It's of corsets were, you know, there was a time when what's called tight lacing was in fashion and they, you know, they, they'd have to, it was hard for the women to breathe. Um, the corset was actually a really necessary part of traditional women's clothing because it provided support for the rest of the stuff she had to wear. So there's a sense in which it wasn't optional, given that you, the woman was expected to wear a big, you know, skirt with lots of layers. It's very heavy, needs support. So women started to try to push back against that. You know, the name Amelia Bloomer is probably familiar to a lot of people, but she was a feminist who tried to develop a kind of a woman's pants that would be acceptable according to social mores, but also pants, um, and easier to move around in.
[00:24:13] And she got a lot of press and it became, you know, popular women's fashion. But for about six months. And then it got ridiculed out of existence. Um, and people said things like, you know, well soon next women will be smoking cigars and they'll be the ones proposing marriage to men. And, you know, the society is going downhill, uh, because of this. So it took a long time for women to get a streamlined, you know, kind of modern type of clothing similar to men, and they're still struggling in many ways with these, you know, highly gendered expectations.
[00:24:46] Russ Altman: So another, related to this, is the expectations in the workplace, and you've written about, I think it's called the Midtown Uniform. Uh, and for those of us who don't know about the, tell me about the Midtown Uniform and, and why it's significant to you.
[00:25:01] Rich Ford: Yeah, so the Midtown Uniform, there's an Instagram site and they'll take a picture of people in, you know, Midtown Manhattan or financial district, um, and all the men are wearing exactly the same thing. They're wearing a, like a Patagonia fleece with a button down collar shirt, um, a pair of khakis and a pair of loafers. Um, and you'll see it, you know, all these men wearing, and, and so the question is what's going on? Um, it's not a dress code, and in fact it's the, what happened when the, the investment banks got rid of their dress codes, um, and said, wear whatever you want, but they all gravitated toward this particular outfit.
[00:25:38] And it shows the power and the importance of fashion. There's a certain kind of reverse snobbery to it because, you know, the financial analysts are the ones that don't need to wear a suit so they're higher status, um, but there's also a real fear that's reflected there. You know, you need to, you don't wanna show up wearing the wrong thing. You still need to look like you're a professional. So they've all gravitated toward this uniform.
[00:26:03] Russ Altman: So, speaking of uniforms, I I, in order to make our conversation complete, I did wanna address, I think, an important issue, which is I know people who go to school, uh, grammar school, little, little kids, who wear uniforms and, and, and it's a good thing, arguably because these are people who might be very poor. And so now they have two or three outfits that they can wear every day. They can rotate them in the wash and everything. And so, uh, in some ways this takes pressure off the kid from having to spend the money that perhaps their family doesn't have to kind of show their status, show their, their ability to.
[00:26:37] So, so there is this sense that sometimes the uniforms can be like a, an oasis of safety where you don't have to put in effort. I don't know if that also might be an argument in the military, but certainly for grammar school. So I was wondering if you've looked at that. And, and how that comes out in your, in your assessment of the pros and cons of these different things.
[00:26:56] Rich Ford: Yeah, I think that's a real phenomenon and sometimes it works quite well that, uh, you take the pressure off, it, it has a leveling, a socially leveling effect. And uniforms, in general, are designed to have a leveling effect. You know, I mean, that's one of their primary functions is that, you know, everyone is of equal status with the uniform.
[00:27:15] Russ Altman: It's, it's in the name uniform.
[00:27:17] Rich Ford: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And so, you know, that's, that can be a very positive thing. Uh, you know, it's, it's a tricky balance with young people because they need to express themselves as well as individuals. But, uh, there's real value in, uh, getting rid of some of the status competition around clothing. So I wouldn't see, you know, I'm, I'm not against dress codes. I'm, I'm a, a scholar of dress codes, but sometimes they serve an important purpose.
[00:27:44] Russ Altman: That's great. And so in the, in the final, uh, few seconds, I just wanna ask you, where do you see this all going? Is this just how humans are and it's like, just get used to it everybody, this is never going to go away? Or do you see things that are happening in our world that make you think that it might change?
[00:28:01] Rich Ford: I think that for, I, I think lots of things were changing. I think this is how humans are in terms of clothing and self-expression. People have dreamed of a world in which everyone would wear the same, you know, thing since Thomas Moore wrote Utopia, um, during the Tudor era, and it's never happened. People want, you know, we wanna express ourselves. We're embodied creatures and the way we present ourselves to the world is important. So I don't think that's going away. What is changing though is, um, clothing seems to be getting more and more casual, and that's a really, really old trend. You know, it goes all the way back to the sport coat, for instance. Um, you know, was a coat that was worn for sports. So the, we've been moving in this direction of more and more casual, and I think that's continuing and maybe even accelerating.
[00:28:49] Russ Altman: That's great and thank you so much. But before we end our conversation, I wanted to move to our the Future In a Minute segment. And I just wanted to first ask you if you're ready to go?
[00:28:58] Rich Ford: Yeah, I'm ready.
[00:28:59] Russ Altman: First question, what is one thing that gives you the most hope about the future?
[00:29:03] Rich Ford: Young people. Um, you know, my kids, my students, they are, um, smarter, they're more kind, uh, and, and more, um, responsible than my generation certainly was. And so that gives me hope.
[00:29:19] Russ Altman: What's one thing you want people to walk away from this episode remembering?
[00:29:24] Rich Ford: Fashion is an essential part of culture and of the human experience. It's not trivial, it's not superficial, and it's no less worthy of study than, uh, high art or music.
[00:29:38] Russ Altman: Aside from money, what is the one thing you need to succeed in your research?
[00:29:42] Rich Ford: Time.
[00:29:45] Russ Altman: If all goes well, what does the future look like?
[00:29:48] Rich Ford: If all goes well, the future looks more, uh, ecologically sustainable, more egalitarian, uh, more democratic.
[00:29:57] Russ Altman: If you were starting over again and you needed to get your certification or your degree in a different discipline, what would that be?
[00:30:04] Rich Ford: It would either be history or um, I'd study tailoring.
[00:30:10] Russ Altman: Thanks to Rich Ford, that was the future of dress codes. Thank you very much for listening to this episode. Don't forget about our back catalog. It's getting bigger and bigger. And it's filled with good stuff. Go ahead and take a listen, especially if you have some free time and an interest about the future. Share the show with your friends, neighbors, relatives, anybody who you think may enjoy it. We are very grateful for you listening, and we appreciate your support very much. Share it with those you love, or even just like a little. You can connect with me on many social media platforms where I'm @RussBAltman, or @RBAltman, that includes LinkedIn Threads, Mastodon, and Bluesky. You can follow the Stanford School of Engineering @Stanford SchoolOfEngineering, or more briefly @StanfordENG.
